Home / News / Megachurch pastor John Hagee wants atheists to leave America and Congress to ban witchcraft and satanism from military
Megachurch pastor John Hagee wants atheists to leave America and Congress to ban witchcraft and satanism from military

Megachurch pastor John Hagee wants atheists to leave America and Congress to ban witchcraft and satanism from military

Texas megachurch pastor John Hagee wants atheists to get on planes and get out of America … and alternative religions booted out of the military.

By way of background, Hagee is a controversial pastor known for his Christian Zionism.  He claims that God personally spoke with him three times and that is why he "unites Christians in support of Israel."  Hagee preaches that "if America turns its back on Israel, God will turn His back on America" and has teamed up with people like conservative radio talk show host Glenn Beck to promote an Israel-End Times message.  Hagee, who sells teddy bears with audio players embedded them in order to program infants and young children by "saturating them with scripture," has hosted people like Newt Gingrich at his church.  Gingrich warned Hagee and his audience that America was on its way to becoming a "secular atheist country, potentially one dominated by radical Islamists."

Not to be outdone by some of his past remarks, such as that Hurricane Katrina was the wrath of God toward gays in New Orleans, that the Catholic Church is "the Great Whore" and that "God sent Hitler to be a 'hunter' of Jews to usher in the establishment of Israel," Hagee has recently focused his attention on atheists, satanists and practitioners of witchcraft.  Via Right Wing Watch, we learn that Hagee preached on Sunday that he wants the atheists to leave America and that he wants the practice of witchcraft to be banned from the U.S. Military:

They're saying that the Ten Commandments have been taken out of the court houses and out of the school houses lest we offend the atheists.  Let me be very clear:  This country was not built for atheists nor by atheists.  It was built by Christian people who believed in the word of God.

To the atheist watching this telecast, if our belief in God offends you, move.  {Applause.}

There are planes leaving every hour on the hour, going every place on planet Earth.  Get on one.  We don't want you and we won't miss you.  I promise you.

Our coins say in God We Trust.  President Obama, you recently told the foreign media that America is not a Christian nation.  You're absolutely wrong.  We were, we are, and always shall be a Bible-reading, praying, Christian people. {Applause and standing ovation.}

Several years ago, witchcraft and satanism were officially approved by the U.S. Military at the direction of the U.S. Congress.  We have officially chosen to recognize another god.  I call upon the members of Congress to outlaw the practice of witchcraft and satanism in the U.S. Military lest we offend the God of Heaven.  I don't care about the atheist.


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Atheists-agnostics such as Thomas Edison, Susan B. Anthony, Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Carl Sagan, Mark Twain and countless others who have or continue to live in the United States were never wanted and would not be missed by Christians such as Pastor John Hagee:


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About D. Beeksma

One of the growing crowd of American "nones" herself, Deborah is a prolific writer who finds religion, spirituality and the impact of belief (and non-belief) on culture inspiring, fascinating and at times, disturbing. She hosts the God Discussion show and handles the site's technical work. Her education and background is in business, ecommerce and law.
  • http://patheos.com/blogs/confessionsofapagansoccermom/ krisbradley

    America was not based on Christianity.  He needs to reread the words of the founding fathers, many of whom were deists and believed very strongly in the separation of church and state.

    The basis of the United States is freedom of religion.  Sadly, that makes me believe that this blow-hard has the right to say these unloving, untrue, ignorant and ridiculous statements.  I hope one day he will come to know the kindness and tolerance that I see in Christians who understand the true nature of Jesus.

  • http://www.houseofbetazed.com Mriana

    God personally spoke to Hagee?  Maybe he should see a psychiatrist for the voices he hears in his head.  He might need medication.

    • Rob S

       I suspect Pastor Hagee does indeed hear God's voice – "Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!" is what the voice is saying – but Pastor Hageee may not be wearing his Hearing ears.  Bummer.

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_3QGK364Q6EYPU7P3VM45CHF2PA Anthony Edwards

         Have you read your bible?  The God of the Christians is a fickle, abusive, racist bigoted sexist.  I think Hagee is keeping the message quite true.

  • http://twitter.com/ImRightYerWrong Copernicus Darwin

    If he would just show definitive proof of whatever god he worships there wouldn't be any Atheists.

    • Donny4luv

      Proof? It's a paradox. No "legitimate" God can walk the Earth. And so that's the only so-called "proof" available. Every "god" since time immemorial was either dead, non-physical (like RA, the sun god) or a non-entity. So where does that put a "legitimate" god…only in our imagination.
      And that's why in the BS (died for our sins) story in the NT, Jesus HAD TO DIE. And only then could he became a "legitimate" God. And so the "miraculous" biblical nonsense becomes simple sense.

  • Nnobrien

    Lots of original Americans were Christians. Lots weren't. Many were Iroquois, Cherokee, Seminole, Mohawk, Abenaki, Penobscot … you get my drift? This is not now and never was a Christian GOVERNMENT, nor should it ever be. You can't want a "secular" government of "radical Islamists" — that's just logically impossible, but I guess when you are logically challenged, you can believe in a lot of impossible things before breakfast.
    Maybe Hagee can get on a plane and leave. We won't miss him.

  • Rob S

    Let me guess – Hagee votes Republican?

    "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." – St. Paul told some folks somewhere.

    It's suspected by some that Pastor Hagee's glass is simply a few shades darker than most.

    On a related note:  I'm christian (small "c") and I see nothing foolish about atheism, it's a valid observation based on science, mostly.  But I choose to believe that there are two versions of science (knowledge) and both are true and independent of each other, mostly. 

    • Donny4luv

      And why is pastor Hagee so passionate about saving Israel? ONLY….ONLY because he believes that the Jews will embrace Jesus as messiah when he returns. IMO, whether Jesus comes or not, it'd be a good thing if Israel survives.
      Personally, if Jesus did return, I think the most pious Christians themselves would kill him all over again. Can you imagine a bearded stranger in a white shroud walking down the center aisle of some church saying, "Sell everything and follow me?"
      Read Wilhelm Reich's illuminating book, The Murder of Christ. He "splains" all.

      • Rob S

         Wilhelm Reich sucks.  Google "orgone" to discover why.   When a person believes that kind of crap then all bets are off as to what he thinks about anything.  Sorry to be so… well no I'm not.

        • Donny4luv

          I do understand your concern about Reich's orgone theory. And he went to jail for it. However, I was referring to his treatise on distinguishing Jesus (the man), from "The Christ" which I had never heard of. And in my opinion, avaluable lesson for "believers." He just tells his version of the Jesus Christ story in his well-thought out book, The Murder of Christ.
          Frankly, you sound angry personally about Reich. And you're entitled, no doubt.
          But in this case, you just might be making a fundamental mis-take by throwing the baby out with the bath water. You don't dig Reich…so don't. But do you want to learn something truly useful about the myths of Christianity?

          • Rob S

            About Reich:
            "God is Nature and Christ is the realization of Natural Law."  This statement is from the introduction page of The Murder of Christ.  Now, if he had stated that the moon is made of green cheese he might have caught my attention.  But when he just jumps up and states "God is Nature" he's lost me right off the bat.  God is actually God – obviously. His Being may contain or produce Nature, but God is not (only) Nature in that narrow sense.  So his premise is screwed up to begin with and can only get worse as he goes along.  You can't begin a discussion with a false premise and arrive at a rational, sane conclusion.

            Another gripe – "The Murder of Christ":
            "Christ" is an office, a job, a duty, a function – not a person. In the same way that Obama is not a President, he is a human being.  Barack Obama's job, office, duty, function is President.  Jesus THE Christ (as in Obama THE President) is simply a title applied to Jesus of Nazareth.  So, if Reich had made it "The Murder of Jesus" then it would have made sense.  But since he even got the title wrong…well – you can't murder a job.

            You said:
            "Myths of Christianity".  Can you name one?  I think that to work on resolving whether something is a myth or not you have to examine the myth itself and not just "myths" in general.

            Wheeeeee!!

             

              

            • truthseeker

               "myths of christianity", they were all stolen from the myths of  Mithra…

              • Rob S

                 Sorry truthseeker, keep seeking.  Nice try tho.

              • http://www.houseofbetazed.com Mriana

                This is true Truthseeker, Xianity stole from a lot of different myths prior to it.

                • Rob S

                   Y'know when you use "Xianity" it kinda gives away your whole mental game, because you know that the proper name is "Christianity".    

                • http://www.houseofbetazed.com Mriana

                  No, it is a Greek letter, the Chi.  X is or rather Chi Rho is the initial of Christ in Greek.  The Greek X (Chi) is often used to initialize Christ (
                  ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ).  Y'Know, you don't know your Greek.  I highly recommend taking a Biblical Greek course, and then maybe you won't be so prone to attack out of ignorance.  I am actually using it properly.
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi_rho 
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi-Rho_(Labarum) 

    • Doug H

      Hi Rob.  The quote you reference is actually found at the end of 1 Corinthians 13.  In that chapter, Paul explains how the way of love is a more excellent way than the way of religious competition and division.  Perhaps Rev. Hagee would do well ground his opinions other people groups there.

      BTW, I am a bigger C christian who believes Jesus called us to do religious things (pray, worship, participate in sacraments, be a part of a genuine faith community) as a part of our relationship with Him.  I also believe that atheism is grounded not so much on science as one might at first believe.  Notions such as the perpetual existence of all matter, the selfish/willful gene, and the existence of paralell universes are not sceintific, but theological positions.  And they appear VERY frequently as premises and/or presuppositions in arguments presented in favor of "scientific" materialism.  It is interesting (at least to me) to note that Albert Einstien found that the further he got into the realm of science, the closer he found himself to questions of theology/cosmology/philosophy.  Might interdependence be more helpful than independence when considering the sciences (and I agree with 100% that they are both sciences) of theology and physics/biology?

      • SilverStrings

        Atheism is simply a lack of belief in any gods. That is it.

        There are science-minded atheists, as well as atheists that believe in all manner of supernatural and/or mystical notions. Buddhism is, in fact, an atheistic belief system.

        As for the bits about science & atheism: not all atheists believe in those examples you mention. They may in fact be scientific, if there is actual science behind them. The parallel universes concept, or "Multiverse" hypothesis, has some science to it, but is not as yet testable or verifiable. The same goes for the perpetual existence of all matter (which is an interesting concept, and no less valid than a perpetually-existent creator); strangely, some people try to conflate the "matter always existed" idea with the Big Bang theory. I'm going to hope you know your high-school science better than that.

        There exists, so far, no connection between the philosophical questions of theology & the empirical evidence behind physics & biology. Therefore, there is no reason to mix them. It would be about as useful as mixing psychiatry and oceanography.

  • http://www.kevinislaughter.com/ Kevin I. Slaughter

    "Our coins say in God We Trust" – that has to be the worst argument for theocracy I've ever read. Should our trust in "god" rise and fall with the value of those coins?
    Is inflation an assault on god?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Using-Reason/100002489435714 Using Reason

    "Hagee, who sells teddy bears with audio players embedded them in order to program infants and young children by "saturating them with scripture,"

    When are we going to start calling religious indoctrination of this kind by it's correct term, child abuse.

  • Alias Bluebird

    The tweet function is a twitter fail. God must not want me to post this.

  • Alias Bluebird

    Mega church pastors like Hagee remind me of the Pharisees of the days of Jesus. I wonder who else thinks that.

    • Rob S

       Me! Me! I do!

      taken from:   http://www.kisol.com/Jesus/historicalbackground/variousgroups.html

      Pharisees

      These were in the majority and were the most popular of the groups. Their aim was to interpret the Torah in the most literal way and they demanded a strict observance of the Mosaic Law. Apart from the Torah itself, they composed a huge number of what has become known as the ‘unwritten law’, the oral interpretation of the Torah, which has been collected in the Talmud and the Mishnah.

      They also formed a group in the Sanhedrin and were quite ready to accept the priestly authority of the Sadducees as long as they were left alone with their own interpretation and understanding of the law.

      They were very rigorous in their demands and were felt to be laying heavy burdens on the shoulders of the people in terms of requiring them to obey mundane laws which really had no basis for them in the written Torah. They have also been described as hypocrites, people who preached one thing and did another.

      • Donny4luv

        Rob,
        I really enjoyed your post. In fact, given your excellent depiction, I think the Pharisees are still alive in the form of the radical Islamists. They're fanatic religious hypocrites who preach the glory of Muhammad while killing non-believers for "his" sake.
        It appears to me that neither group would ever take personal responsibility for they're own lives…and their own actions. It's all about "God willing."
        It's not so much of a stretch to see it was much the same in Nazi Germany. After all, they only murdered and tortured people because they swore allegiance to their "god's" will. Their god was….Hitler.

        • Renaudbarry

           Pathetic… The radical Christians are the same. And you can find terrorists killing in the name of Buddah, Allah, Jesus, E.T, Michael Jackson, Georges Bush, Charles Manson, the list could be soooooo long.
          You are just a racist who can't or don't want to assume. If their god is Hitler, you just talk like Goebbels…
          I say it again. PATHETIC.

          • Renaudbarry

             And please change your nickname, please… Donny4luv, oh my god i'm gonna vomit all my dinner on my screen.
            Donny4hate is your real name.

        • SilverStrings

          Hitler – and the Nazi membership in general – was Christian. He often spoke of doing "God's work," had "Gott Mit Uns" (God With Us) on the SS belt buckles, and talks about his belief in Jesus in 'Mein Kampf.' He was even backed by the Roman Catholic Church for quite some time.

          Radical Christians are just as bad as radical Muslims (that's the correct word, by the way; "Islamist" is not even a word). Look up the terrorist group "Christian Identity" and its many offshoots. Or the KKK. Or any number of clinic bombers.

          Research is a good thing.

  • Chip

    What a very unchristian thing to be saying and thinking.  The first gift God gave to mankind was freewill.  The decision to follow him or not.  What man has the right to take away that which God so freely gave.  God wants those who follow him with their heart, not with their lips.  It's time people understood just what christianity is all about. God tried dictating the law (read the old testiment), commanding people to do this and that.  People were obeying the letter of the law, but not the spirit.  Christianity is about the spirit of the law, sharing the love God has for each of us with our neighbors.  Proving that love for God by helping those less fortunate.  Of course the incomes of some people will go down if they actually did what Jesus preached.

    • Donny4luv

      Mahatma Gandhi once said, "Christianity is a wonderful religion. If only they'd practice it."

  • chip

    Pray for those who fall so easily into the ploys devised by Satan.  Every thing preached here is against Christian beliefs.  Pray for those who have not seen the light that is Jesus.  Pray so those souls will not be lost.  While doing that, help the less fortunate.  Feed the hungry, clothe the naked.  Visit the elderly etc.  Jesus never asked someones orientation or religious convictions.  He helped them, then taught them.  He gave to all whatever they needed before teaching them.  Sometimes he just gave

    • Donny4luv

      With all due respect for your religious beliefs, how do you know that souls are lost? Are you the authority on Christian beliefs? Then why are there so many separate sects of Christians? Isn't that because they believe differently?
      Personally, I appreciate the Sermon on the Mount. But this thing about ploys of Satan and Jesus being the God to pray to, is in some cases plain imaginary. With no offense intended.

      • Rob S

         May I refer you to www dot near-death dot com?  Has lots of stuff about near-death experiences.  See what you make of it, maybe compare it to some of the things Jesus taught or revealed.  For a real zinger read the "Satan" thing from the "Conclusions" menu on the left – you may be in for a surprise.  Lots to see.

    • http://www.houseofbetazed.com Mriana

      Nothing fails like prayer.  Just because we don't believe in your religious beliefs does not mean we are lost souls.  We may be on the right path, for all you know.  So please do us all a favour and don't waste your time praying for those of us who are quite happy with the path we are on currently and have no interest in yours.  You'll be a lot happier person with less anxiety.

  • Donny4luv

    Personally I like Pastor Hagee. Unfortunately he sometimes goes off to fantasy land and his mouth goes off before his brain is engaged.  I think his power has gone to his head.
    He claims God has spoken to him 3 times? Hah! God speaks to me ALL THE TIME! It's the God within me…and not just within me. It's the very God who Jesus said is "within us all." But do most Christians understand that? Hell no. And that's why so many Christian "believers" suffer.

    • Rob S

       Why do you like him?  I don't.  His intolerance is of biblical proportions!  LOL!

  • Gage

    Yes, please. Bans all religions except Christianity from the military so you can condemn them all to hell by them breaking the 6th commandment. Maybe this guy needs to read the book he's been preaching about all these years.

  • http://twitter.com/RealityOffends Stephen Frost

    How can an atheist society be dominated by radical Islam? The two are mutually exclusive.

    • http://www.kevinislaughter.com/ Kevin I. Slaughter

      I think the argument is that a secular, "permissive" society would allow for the establishment and flourishing of Islam, and through a combination of liberal laws and demographics, an open liberal democracy could quite literally vote in an Islamic state.

      I don't forsee that happening, but one could plausibly _follow_ the other (probability of it happening aside).

  • MyShepherd

    Whether John Hagee's claim that God spoke to him 3 times true or not, I believe his statements are right.

    This what the God of heaven and earth said in the Bible about the Atheist:"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up My people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God. There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath despised them.  Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! When God bringeth back the captivity of His people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad."
    "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up My people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God. There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath despised them.  Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! When God bringeth back the captivity of His people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad."

    "When I shall receive the congregation I will judge uprightly. The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved: I bear up the pillars of it. I said unto the fools, Deal not foolishly:
    and to the wicked, Lift not up the horn: Lift not up your horn on high: speak not with a stiff neck. 
    For promotion cometh neither from the east, nor from the west, nor from the south. But God is the judge:
    He putteth down one, and setteth up another. 
    For in the hand of the LORD there is a cup, and the wine is red; it is full of mixture;
    and He poureth out of the same: but the dregs thereof, all the wicked of the earth shall wring them out, and drink them. But I will declare for ever; I will sing praises to the God of Jacob. All the horns of the wicked also will I cut off; but the horns of the righteous shall be exalted."
    LORD, how long shall the wicked, how long shall the wicked triumph?
    How long shall they utter and speak hard things? and all the workers of iniquity boast themselves?
    They break in pieces thy people, O LORD, and afflict thine heritage.
    They slay the widow and the stranger, and murder the fatherless.
    Yet they say, The LORD shall not see, neither shall the God of Jacob regard it.
    Understand, ye brutish among the people: and ye fools, when will ye be wise?
    He that planted the ear, shall He not hear? He that formed the eye, shall He not see?
    He that chastiseth the heathen, shall not He correct? he that teacheth man knowledge, shall not He know? 
    The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity. 
    Blessed is the man whom thou chastenest, O LORD, and teachest him out of thy law;
    That thou mayest give him rest from the days of adversity, until the pit be digged for the wicked.
    For the LORD will not cast off His people, neither will He forsake His inheritance.
    But judgment shall return unto righteousness: and all the upright in heart shall follow it.
    Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? or who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity?
    Unless the LORD had been my help, my soul had almost dwelt in silence.
    When I said, My foot slippeth; thy mercy, O LORD, held me up.
    In the multitude of my thoughts within me thy comforts delight my soul.
    Shall the throne of iniquity have fellowship with thee, which frameth mischief by a law?
    They gather themselves together against the soul of the righteous, and condemn the innocent blood.
    But the LORD is my defence; and my God is the rock of my refuge.
    And He shall bring upon them their own iniquity, and shall cut them off in their own wickedness; yea, the LORD our God shall cut them off."

    If the Athiest will not repent by renewing their mind and turn to God, they will receive their reward of punishment in hell according to the Bible. 

    Luke 13:3 – "……… except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish"

    • Rob S

       "Judge not that so that you will not be judged."  Ever heard of that one?  STOP judging atheists, you are neither wise enough, nor loving enough, nor understanding enough, nor compassionate enough to judge anyone, and neither am I.  Remove the board from your own eye so that you can see clearly enough to remove the splinter from the other guy's eye – unless you're an opthalmologist.

      • MyShepherd

        @ @kevinislaughter:disqus Rob S,

        Read very well my text. I am not the one who is judging, it is God, the author of the Bible. Read it again and I supposed you are an english speaking person, you can understand english writing. correct?

        • http://www.kevinislaughter.com/ Kevin I. Slaughter

          HAHAHA…. the Bible is not an English document, nor is it sourced from one document! Do you not know the history of this book?

          Which parts did God write?
          Does he prefer to write in Hebrew, but decided to give Greek a chance later on?
          Did he proofread the English translations?
          If so, he did a rather shoddy job of it.

          • MyShepherd

            Search the Scriptures and you shall find.

            • Renaudbarry

               Are you able to think by yourself or are you just a stupid machina made to repeat what it has just read on a "magical" book without understanding anything and never trying to understand anything ???
              You talk exactely like Justin Bieber fans. "Just look at him, man, he is so cool and beautiful !!!". It is just pathetic.

              PS : (Stupid is for the machina, not for you. If you don't mean the differences just read the Scriptures… "I don't judge you it is god" as you said with your unique sens of humour).

              • MyShepherd

                You can say whatever you want to say. What I want you to know that there is a God who look at what you have done. If you think the Bible is a magical book acc. to your own thinking, then you have to live acc. to what you believe.

                But, here is one thing, God still allow His abundant grace to be poured out to the sinners and atheists who would like to come for repentance of their sins and accept the Lord JesusChrist as Lord and Savior in their lives. Do not wait till the time when God terminate His provision of grace, for the wrath of God is revelead from heaven and is coming to those who are wicked, stubborn, fool and unrepentant hearts. The reason Jesus died for all of us, for all of you and me is to conquer sin and death for those who are willing to repent and accept and believe the Lord Jesus Christ His words and His teachings to put it in your hearts. For it written,  "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;"  "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:""And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:"
                "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;"
                 "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:"
                "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:"
                 
                "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
                For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

                • http://www.houseofbetazed.com Mriana

                  OK… When I decide to go to Wonderland I'll be sure to look you up.

          • http://www.houseofbetazed.com Mriana

            Not to derail the thread, but I have to ask…  Are you the same Kevin Slaughter from CFI forums?  Nothing wrong if you are, I'm just curious and think it rather cool you're here.

            • http://www.kevinislaughter.com/ Kevin I. Slaughter

              Hi Mriana! Yeah, same one. Somebody posted a link to the above and I couldn't help myself from commenting.

              Then the spambot named @903bc182488825148c3060f5d7c51a3e:disqus mentioned me in a comment, so I came back.
              I'll need to stop back in to the CFI forums. I poke my head in there from time to time, but mainly lurk.

              • http://www.houseofbetazed.com Mriana

                Well, don't be a stranger here either.  :)  I do write some atheistic articles on this site, as well as write news.  I think you'd fit in well on this site, despite the Religious Reich who drops in on occasion.  You know, I can't remember if we've done a show on your views yet.  It could be quite interesting and really stimulate discussion in the show's chat room.  lol

          • DougH

            This is an interesting take on divive inspiration.  It saddens me that the fundamentalist (fundamentalism is an actual position with actual dcrinal statements, not just a general term) doctrine of verbal inspiration and verbal inerrancy are believed by some to be the only way to view divine inspiration of biblical texts.  This brings to my mind a comment made by Bill Mahr where he said that if the Jonah parable was not literal historical fact, no statements in the Bible could be considered reliable (the response by the talk show studio audience was Hagee-like applause).   Your post is right on if refuting the fundamentalist position refuted the concept of divine inspiration.  But the fundamentalist position is held by only a small minority within christianity.  More nuanced approaches make for more interesting discussion.  

            I do get that the context of your post responds to what seems to be a fully fundamentalist presentation of the issue.  The purpose of this reply is only to suggest that there are MANY christians who believe and argue that every objection you raise to verbal inspiration/inerrancy is 100% valid, yet  they affirm divine inspiration of the English texts we have today.  This begins, rather than ending, the matter.   

            • http://www.kevinislaughter.com/ Kevin I. Slaughter

              I'm not a Biblical scholar, far from it. I do know a bit of history of the "production" of the book though.

              I don't believe in the divine inspiration of the book for the simple reason I don't believe in a divinity.
              That said, I would never assume that all Christians believe the Bible inerrant, literal "word of God". I think many do hold extremely conflicting views of it, as most Christians are not… "considered" regarding their beliefs. I say that in the same way as "most Republicans and/or Democrats are not considered about their beliefs."
              They haven't critically examined them. This is pretty natural though, as religion is basically a thumbnail sketch of how you're optimally supposed to behave, and as long as you don't go too far away from that imagined ideal, you're still a "good person". 

              • DougH

                Thanks for replying, Kevin.  We are more or less in agreement.  Maybe it is just the case that few people have really thought critically.
                I would add the note that christianity offers not only an ideal, but the posibility of spiritual tranformation.  This is great news for  those who believe that personhood is something that is of a higher quality (at least potentially)than homosapienism.
                Maybe it is on us (practitioners of christianity) to make this real in the world; which makes me sad considering the words and attitudes that occasioned this thread.

                • http://www.houseofbetazed.com Mriana

                  And Buddhism, Toaism, and humanism does not cause people to strive to an ideal or a transformation?  Your Xian view is the only correct view?   BTW, I do not believe all Xians think the same.  In fact, I know they do not.  Some Xians accept homosexuals without trying to change them- ie the Episcopal Church.  Some allow women equality in service, such as women priests/ministers.  Some, like the some in the Episcopal and Lutheran church accept abortion in the case of rape, incest, or when the mother's life is in danger. The list goes on and on.   My beef is mostly with Fundamngelicals and other extremists who wish to control people.

                • DougH

                  Thanks for the reply, Mriana.  Having reread my post, I see no claim of christian exclusivity whatsoever.  I get that you may be used to seeing that kind of claim, especially from those who self-identify as christian.  I hope that we could agree that many paths aspire to spiritual transformation. My point was made in response to an individual who does not believe in divinity.  By making  transformation real in the world, and attributing the transformation to divine grace, we make what is in my opinion a case for divinity that is both practical and helpful.  Incidentally, that kind of case is infinitely more effective than anything I might be able to say in this context.  But, I do love this context.  I find it stimulating and helpful.

                  As to the social issues; I agree with most of the positions you site.  But may I respectfully suggest that your positions are not the only ones that have valid and rigorous ethical arguments to support them?  Nor are they true or best just because you believe they are true or best.  Nor are persons who disagree with those positions bad or morally bankrupt.  This paragraph contains the meta-message that christians are not the only group on the planet who tend to make or imply claims of exclusivity.  And all such claims tend to be less helpful in regard to peace and social well-being.

                  Can we agree that it is morally bankrupt to try to force others (control them as you say) to live by your moral code based solely on the proposition that it is your moral code?  Sociatal norms and the rule of law are a separate discussion for another time.            

                • http://www.houseofbetazed.com Mriana

                  I agree, it is morally bankrupt to force others to live by their moral code and beliefs.  However, sometimes society makes laws, norms, etc via religion (i.e. Islam, such as that of Iraq and other like countries or Rome and Britain centuries ago), thereby forcing citizens to conform to that religion, usually the more extreme views of said religion.  So it is not necessarily a separate discussion.

        • http://www.houseofbetazed.com Mriana

          Actually, you are the one judging and projecting it on your concept of a deity.  Humans wrote the Bible, which had nothing to do with any deity and it is not the inerrant word of any deity.  Humans were inspired by themselves not a deity.  Religion is nothing more a human creation.  Religion is mythology misunderstood ~ Fr Tom Harpur, author of The Pagan Christ.

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk-6qtQl0vU 

          • Rob S
            • http://www.houseofbetazed.com Mriana

              Try reading some of Achraya's books.  She's documented everything and from what I can tell, the Christ is also a remake of Krishna, from the Gita, who is also the "I AM", as well as the Beginning, middle, and end, and the incarnation of Vishnu, just as Christ is the incarnation of God.  It's the same thing, IMO.

              • Rob S

                 Nah.  It's a waste of time because it seems her stuff, and  ALL the 'Christianity is myth'  stuff is just the same old tired material rehashed by hundreds of hacks to sell their stuff.  It's old hat,  I've heard it a hundred times before and it still fails to impress me.  It's clever, or used to be 50-100 years ago, but no kewpie doll today!

                One thing bugs me though, if a person thinks Jesus was not a historical person then any discussion about Him after that would be pointless, no?  So anybody worth their gray matter ought first to prove that Jesus was not historical.  It's like a shortcut. After such proof then you wouldn't even have to consider all the "Christ-Krishna-Mithra" stuff.  If I walked into a classroom and the instructor started with "Since Jesus never existed…." you can be fairly sure that any further discussion regarding this person who never existed is totally pointless and absurd on its face, no?  Time to get your money back on the textbook(s).

                I consider the New Testament to be real history, not in each and every detail, but close enuff for farm work.  Was it written by God?  Of course not.  It contains supposed eyewitness accounts surrounding the life of a certain man.  I believe those eyewitness accounts are true accounts.  Can I "prove" them?  Of course not.  You can chose to believe an eyewitness account or not.  If someone produced photographic evidence with a Magnolta 400x multi-zoom-flash-from-hell digital camera at the time and took photos of Jesus walking on the Lake I'd have to say: "Looks Photoshopped to me – nobody can walk on water."

                  

                • http://www.houseofbetazed.com Mriana

                  I don't consider the N. T. real history.  It has a lot errors concerning history.  At best, it's historical fiction and even then it is still inaccurate historically.  Still, the Jesus of the Bible is only a mythical character.  If said Jesus ever existed, he was not what the story portrayed him as.  However, it makes for a nice fictional discussion, just like any other work of literature.  Most of Shakespeare's characters never existed and the one who did is greatly fictionalized in Shakespeare's work, yet people who enjoy literature still discuss all of his literary works.  People also still discuss mythology too.  Thus, from a literary point of view, it's not pointless nor is it pointless from a mythological point of view either.

                  As for eyewitness accounts, none of them were eyewitness accounts, even Spong and others have said that.  Not only that, you can go to a University and take a course in N. T. studies and they'd tell you the same thing (I know, because I have taken many a religious course, including Xianity).

                • MyShepherd

                  Mriana, there is no erro in the N.T. if you will read the King James Bible AV1611. Do not read those new modern bibles. You will be mislead. Those modern translattions are not comes from God.

                • http://www.houseofbetazed.com Mriana

                  ROFL!  That's the worst translation of a very human created and inspire Bible.  Any scholar or theologian worth his salt will tell you that.  That is one version we're not allowed to use when I studied Xianity and other religions in college.  There are even some modern Biles they don't recommend, but they really do not recommend the KJV because it's poorly translated.  The error of the NT is the Church telling people many years ago that it is history, when it is more mythology, in an effort to control the Vulgar.  The second on is telling the Vulgar masses that it was inspired by God and is inerrant, when in reality it is a purely human creation and not the inerrant word of any deity.  Thirdly, the Inquisition was an attempt to enslave people's minds to believing what they are told about the Bile, Xianity, and JC.

                • DougH

                  Good start Mriana.  I am a trained theologian (not quite as trained as a bible scholar) who could tell you very readily that the 1611 KJV is really the worse of the translations currently available.  This is true mostly because we now have access to more numerous and more reliable manuscripts from which to translate (the dead sea scrolls for example), English itsself has gone through some changes is usage since 1611, and translations like the NASB and RSV rely more fully on origianl language documents than upon the Latin Vulgate (itself a translation). 

                  As to authority and inspiration of the Bible, Dr. Atchmeier wrote a helpful book called Inspiration and Authority that may help you make fewer dogmatic statements about Scripture being solely mythology.  It is conceded that faith is part of the cake here, but based upon what you have given me here, your dogma has no more weight than that of the fundamentalists.   

                • http://www.houseofbetazed.com Mriana

                  Interesting what people call dogma when they jump on my statements as though it were a fire needing to be put out, demand that I change my statement, push me to believe what they believe, insist I'm wrong they are right, tell me I'm a fool taking it out of the bile as though it really was true (yes, I know that verse) as though it will scare me, use other purely human threats, appeal to apologists, and/or project things, as though I cannot have my own thoughts.  Not only that, some act like I don't belong here, oblivious to various things on the website, as though they wear blinders. Gotta love Fundies.

                • DougH

                  Sorry to cause such an emotional reaction.  My concerns were academic and based only on the formal def. of dogma.

                • http://www.houseofbetazed.com Mriana

                  No you're not causing me emotional distress, I just find Xian extremists' views, demands and definitions interesting, esp when they project so much.

                • MyShepherd

                  I believe you do not know what you are talking about.

                  The AV1611 KJB is the only book on this planet that stood the test of time for more than 400yrs. It has been attacked before but those opponents did not proper. The KJB is the infallible book, inerrant and the pure God's Word. No other bible translation can able to match the purity of this book.God used this KJB for more than 400years now to reach milllions and millions of souls to bring them to Christ and it is still the best selling book. It was translated by the group of Godly men so accurately preserved from the original hebrew and Greek tongues which is considered by the majority as the final authority. If this book is not preserved by GOD where His word was written in english then it will not be used by many countries in the world. No other book on this planet earth can surpass the supremacy of the King James Bible.

                  I can't share the  true informations on omparisons bet. KJB and the new modern translations here since most people in this forum are Atheist.

                • http://www.houseofbetazed.com Mriana

                  Yes, the Acts of Buddha, the Gita, and other survived longer than that and are still around today.  They even survived the burning of the Alexandria Library.  What you say proves nothing concerning the value of the KJV.  All it shows is that people managed to keep the translation around all these years. The Gita and the Tao have been around long before Xianity and from what you just stated, that must mean they have more truth than the human created and inspire Bile.  WOW!  The Tao older than the KJV and survived all sorts of battles including the burning of the Alexandria Library!  What truth that must be.  You ought to try reading some of those other books, along with getting your hands on a copy of the Egyptian Book of the Dead, which says that Horus is the beginning and the end, the Truth and that light, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, the I AM, and a host of other statements made about God in Xianity.  Krishna was the I AM, the beginning, middle, and end, as well as the incarnation of Vishnu (AKA God). It wouldn't hurt to read some Hindu texts, the Tao, Buddhist texts, Gnotic Gospels, etc either.  Horus, Krishna, and others were templates for JC.  You might find that to describe it is not to describe it, as well as "Those who say, don't know and those who know, don't say" from the Tao, has some truism in it also.

          • Rob S

             Tom Harpur began his career as an (evangelical) Anglican priest and
            professor of New Testament at Wycliffe College, Toronto. Just over 30
            years ago, he moved from academia into journalism. Today, he is perhaps
            the leading religion writer in Canada.

            "The Pagan Christ" is the
            story of his discovery of the writings of one Alvin Boyd Kuhn
            (1880-1963) and two earlier writers (Godfrey Higgins [1771-1834] and
            Gerald Massey [1828-1907]), who argued that all of the essential ideas
            of both Judaism and Christianity came primarily from Egyptian religion. Toward
            the end of the third Christian century, the leaders of the church began
            to misinterpret the Bible. Prior to this, no one ever understood the
            Bible to be literally true. Earlier, in keeping with all other
            religions, the narrative material of the Hebrew and Greek Bible was
            interpreted as myth or symbol, read as allegory and metaphor rather than
            as history.
            According to Harpur, there is no evidence that Jesus
            of Nazareth ever lived. He claims that virtually all of the details of
            the life and teachings of Jesus have their counterpart in Egyptian
            religious ideas. He does not quote any contemporary Egyptologist or
            recognized academic authority on world religions nor appeal to any of
            the standard reference books in Egyptology or to any primary sources.
            Rather, he is entirely dependent on the work of Kuhn (and Higgins &
            Massey).
            Who is Alvin Boyd Kuhn? He is given the title
            `Egyptologist' and is regarded by Harpur as "one of the single greatest
            geniuses of the twentieth century" [who] "towers above all others of
            recent memory in intellect and his understanding of the world's
            religious."
            As it turns out, Kuhn was a high school language
            teacher who was an enthusiastic proponent of Theosophy, a prodigious
            author and lecturer, who self-published most of his books.
            Not
            being myself an expert in Egyptian religion, I consulted those who are
            about their views of contribution that Kuhn, Higgins and Massey have
            made to Egyptology and whether they thought some of the key ideas of
            "The Pagan Christ" well grounded. So I sent an email to twenty of the
            leading Egyptologists – in Canada, USA, UK, Australia, Germany, and
            Austria.
            I noted as a sample the following claims put forth by Kuhn (and hence Harpur):
            That the name of Jesus was derived from the Egyptian "Iusa," which means "the coming divine Son who heals or saves".
            That
            the god Horus is "an Egyptian Christos, or Christ…. He and his
            mother, Isis, were the forerunners of the Christian Madonna and Child,
            and together they constituted a leading image in Egyptian religion for
            millennia prior to the Gospels."
            That Horus also "had a virgin birth, and that in one of his roles, he was 'a fisher of men with twelve followers.'"
            That
            "the letters KRST appear on Egyptian mummy coffins many centuries BCE,
            and … this word, when the vowels are filled in., is really Karast or
            Krist, signifying Christ."
            That the doctrine of the incarnation
            "is in fact the oldest, most universal mythos known to religion. It was
            current in the Osirian religion in Egypt at least four thousand years
            BCE"
            Only one of the ten experts who responded to my questions had ever heard of Kuhn, Higgins or Massey!
            Professor
            Kenneth A. Kitchen of the University of Liverpool pointed out that not
            one of these men is mentioned in M. L. Bierbrier's "Who Was Who in
            Egyptology" (3rd ed, 1995), nor is any of their works listed in Ida B.
            Pratt's very extensive bibliography on Ancient Egypt (1925/1942).
            Another
            distinguished Egyptologist wrote: "Egyptology has the unenviable
            distinction of being one of those disciplines that almost anyone can lay
            claim to, and the unfortunate distinction of being probably the one
            most beleaguered by false prophets. He goes on to refer to Kuhn's
            "fringe nonsense."
            The responding scholars were unanimous in dismissing the suggested etymologies for Jesus and Christ.
            Ron
            Leprohan, Professor of Egyptology at the University of Toronto, pointed
            out that while "sa" means "son" in ancient Egyptian and "iu" means `to
            come," but Kuhn/Harpur have the syntax all wrong. In any event, the
            name `Iusa' simply does not exist in Egyptian.
            The name `Jesus'
            is Greek from a universally recognized west Semitic name ("Jeshu'a"),
            born not merely by the central figure in the New Testament but also by
            many other people in the first century.
            While all recognize that
            the image of the baby Horus and Isis has influenced the Christian
            iconography of Madonna and Child, this is where the similarity stops.
            There is no evidence for the idea that Horus was virgin born.
            There
            is no evidence for the idea that Horus was `a fisher of men' or that
            his followers (the King's officials were called `Followers of Horus")
            were ever twelve in number.
            KRST is the word for "burial"
            ("coffin" is written "KRSW"), but there is no evidence whatsoever to
            link this with the Greek title "Christos" or Hebrew "Mashiah".
            There
            is no mention of Osiris in Egyptian texts until about 2350 BC, so
            Harpur's reference to the origins of Osirian religion is off by more
            than a millennium and a half. (Elsewhere Harpur refers to "Jesus in
            Egyptian lore as early as 18,000 BCE" and he quotes Kuhn as claiming
            that "the Jesus who stands as the founder of Christianity was at least
            10,000 years of age." In fact, the earliest extant writing that we have
            dates from about 3200 BCE.)
            Kuhn/Harper's redefinition of
            "incarnation" and rooting this in Egyptian religion is regarded as bogus
            by all of the Egyptologists with whom I have consulted. According to
            one: "Only the pharaoh was believed to have a divine aspect, the divine
            power of kingship, incarnated in the human being currently serving as
            the king. No other Egyptians ever believed they possessed even `a
            little bit of the divine'."
            Virtually none of the alleged evidence
            for the views put forward in "The Pagan Christ" is documented by
            reference to original sources. The notes refer mainly to Kuhn, Higgins,
            Massey, or some other long-out-of-date work.
            Furthermore,
            Harpur's notes abound with errors and omissions. If you look for
            supporting evidence for a particular point made by the author, it is not
            there. Many quotations are taken out of context and interpreted in a
            very different sense from what their author originally meant (especially
            the early church fathers).
            iritual pilgrimage than about the origins of Christianity.

            • http://www.houseofbetazed.com Mriana

              I agree with Harpur, as well as Acharya, and do not believe Jesus ever existed, that he is just rewritten mythology, esp that of Horus.  Personally, I was glad to find this information, from many sources, because the crucifixion is so barbaric.  The story makes a whole lot more sense with the mythical JC being the sun, as well as rewritten mythology.  Like I said, I am so glad the JC story is nothing more than a myth and that the character was not real and was not crucified in reality.  The story is a lot more palatable as Solar mythology.

        • Rob S

           "Read very well my text." – sounds like a translation from Cicero – be that as it may… God did not write the Bible or any part of it.  People wrote the Bible in its entirety – pen to parchment, pen to parchment, that's how it got done.  Now, knowing people as I do, I understand that they are prone to Error, Prejudice, Embellishment and to God's Truth as well (surprise!).

          So, we should see the Bible as a mixture of all those things – Truth, error, prejudice, embellishment and Truth.  As a result, when we sit down to read the Bible we must bring our Faith AND our brains with us – that's why God built that gray stuff. 

          Yep.

          • MyShepherd

            That is from your private interpretation and assumption which have no basis. Then how would you understand these:
            "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." "Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for My mouth it hath commanded, and His spirit it hath gathered them." "Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book." "Then Jeremiah called Baruch the son of Neriah: and Baruch wrote from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the LORD, which he had spoken unto him, upon a roll of a book." "And Baruch the son of Neriah did according to all that Jeremiah the prophet commanded him, reading in the book the words of the LORD in the LORD'S house.""Then read Baruch in the book the words of Jeremiah in the house of the LORD, in the chamber of Gemariah the son of Shaphan the scribe, in the higher court, at the entry of the new gate of the LORD'S house, in the ears of all the people." "When Michaiah the son of Gemariah, the son of Shaphan, had heard out of the book all the words of the LORD, "The Atheist can never understand the Words of the LORD. This is what Jesus said in the Bible "He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.""He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.""because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.""When Michaiah the son of Gemariah, the son of Shaphan, had heard out of the book all the words of the LORD, "The Atheist can never understand the Words of the LORD. This is what Jesus said in the Bible "He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.""He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."
            "because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."

            • Renaudbarry

               "The Atheist can never understand the Words of the LORD. This is what
              Jesus said in the Bible "He that is of God heareth God's words: ye
              therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.""He that is of God
              heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of
              God."

              Let me say you one thing : i don't want your paradise. I prefer to burn in hell than to chill in paradise with people like you. It could turn me mad and i'd do a silly thing, like rape an angel or stuff like that…

              • MyShepherd

                Your quote "Let me say you one thing : i don't want your paradise. I prefer to burn in hell than to chill in paradise with people like you. It could turn me mad and i'd do a silly thing, like rape an angel or stuff like that…" Unquote.

                Are you serious about what you said? if yes, then so be it according to your words. If not, turn to God and received the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.

                • http://www.houseofbetazed.com Mriana

                  Oh but it would be so much warmer and a lot more fun!  Your so-called heaven, seems quite boring.

          • Renaudbarry

             Even if what i've written before is quite… agressive (against Danny4hate and MySheperd only), i must i'm quite happy to read such comment from a person who said before "I'm christian (small "c") and I see nothing foolish about atheism, it's a
            valid observation based on science, mostly.  But I choose to believe
            that there are two versions of science (knowledge) and both are true and
            independent of each other, mostly."
            I'd love to meet you in a Paris street, going in a café just to talk with you in front of a good glass of french white wine…
            Even when you don't believe, just like me, you always doubt. That is the paradox…

    • http://www.facebook.com/dave.lanson Dave Lanson

      Spoken like a true believer of fairy tales and the whole christian mythology.

      • MyShepherd

        Seems to me that you are also an Atheist, isn't it? Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. rophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. rophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

        • http://www.houseofbetazed.com Mriana

          Disbelief and doubt is good.  Let's see… How many atheists and non-Xians have you've counted on this site?  There are Xians on this site, but they don't believe in barging in and telling people what they must believe or preach at others.  Because of that, we generally have very good thought provoking discussions.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_3QGK364Q6EYPU7P3VM45CHF2PA Anthony Edwards

            Again, I will ask; if you have a test to take, and you
            sit down to take it, what is the value of the test if the answers are
            already filled out for you?  Some free-will if your government is
            regulating your religious freedoms.  Is your punishment for failure supposed to be in the afterlife?

            • http://www.houseofbetazed.com Mriana

              What afterlife?  Sorry, Anthony, but you're not making any sense.

        • SilverStrings

          Same could be said of the Hindu Vedas, the Norse Sagas, the Greek myths, and literally any other religious text ever written.

          If you're using Pascal's Wager – that is, telling atheists to believe in God "just in case" – then it follows that they must believe in EVERY god, just in case. That is, of course, ignoring the fact that belief is not something one can just turn off or on…

          You also have a bad habit of repeatedly copy-pasting sections of your posts. Do try to correct that; it makes your comments even more difficult to follow.

    • yrba

      "If the Athiest will not repent by renewing their mind and turn to God,
      they will receive their reward of punishment in hell according to the
      Bible."
      The problem is that your book is nothing more than a legends and mythologics book, nothing else. It doesn't mean that Jesus, Mary, Joseph didn't exist. But give one real evidence about the Black Sea, about Lazarus, about resurrection, about the walk on the sea, and there it goes again and again and again and again.
      Why do you want me to read a book and believe all that i read, without trying to understand, like a child aged of 2???
      And i won't repent !!!! Never.
      Cause if god exists, he is a mass murderer. And if i read your book and trust in it, then god diserves to die : an eye for an eye… How can i believe in him and respect him regarding of all the crimes committed on his name, by his hands ???
      Sorry for my poor english i'm a stupid atheist communist… french !

      • MyShepherd

        Do not accuse God based on your unbelief.  He is not a murderer. He is a merciful and ever-loving God. You need to know and understand if sin, wickedness, iniquities and transgressions shall abound and if people will not take heed of the warning like those in the ancient time, God will execute judgment to those wicked and the ungodly, to those who refuse to believe that there is God. The Lord Jesus said:For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.Again the Bible said:
        Again the Bible said:
        And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;And spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;  And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: And again the Scriptures says:For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;  Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

      • http://www.houseofbetazed.com Mriana

        Don't you just love Xian extremists' demands and threats, Renaudbarry?  First they threaten to punish you and then they tell you "Do not…"  They really do not like being yanked out of the Land of Oz do they or point out that they do things to harm people etc etc, do they?

    • Renaudbarry

       And please stop with your LORD. I have and know and respect and love no Lords. Neither my father, my boss, my president, etc…
      I love my wife, my three children, nature, and i respect all human beings on earth, no problem with their religious beliefs, race (if races exist – i don't think so)…
      But you, I am sorry to tell you that, even if you have "love", "respect", "brotherhood", etc, etc, in your mouth in fact YOU JUST TALK LIKE A F…..G NAZI !!!! 

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_3QGK364Q6EYPU7P3VM45CHF2PA Anthony Edwards

       Why does this apply to a government, which applies to the "Render unto Caesar" clause in the bible.  Your government and your god are separate.  These rules are for you to follow.  If you have a test to take, and you sit down to take it, what is the value of the test if the answers are already filled out for you?  Some free-will if your government is regulating it!

  • Plume

    If the atheists in that country LEFT, you would be left with few to no doctors, few to no scientists, few to no technicians, few to no people of culture. All there'd be left in there would be a collection of rednecks. So by all means, DO follow this @$$hole's advice and LEAVE. :) I do wanna see that happening. 

    • http://www.facebook.com/robert.e.baskin Robert E Baskin

      we would be better off

  • Skeptical_Lady

    I am so sick of being told to leave MY country because I am atheist. I was born here same as you & I have the same rights as you do!

    • Rob S

       Hagee is a turd and one of these days he will be flushed down the big toilet of Life .  Although I'm not one, Atheists are OK in my book, it's a rational way to think.

      • Rob S

         They put weird marks in my comment.  What's that all about?

  • http://www.facebook.com/dave.lanson Dave Lanson

    Gingrich warned of a "secular atheist country, potentially one dominated by radical Islamists." Isn't that a major contradiction in terms. If America becomes an atheist country, then Islamist cannot dominate. If the Islamist can dominate, then this isn't an atheist secular country. And they say Newt is smart. Duhh.

  • Marie

    What happened to the separation of church and state, it was put into the constitution because thy'd seen the mess it caused in Europe.
    The native americans with their traditional "alternative religions" should tell the christians to leave if they can't play nicely with others.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/GWBDVPGGY37K3QLIECDZXLBCCE Carl Leon

    Old demon Hagee is as despicable as the god he worships!

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